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European cheaper 40Gb PS3 model lacks PS2 backwards compatibility?What the heck?And why is PS1 backwards compatibility retained?

Sony has decided that the European cheaper version of the PS3 will not feature backwards compatibility with ps2 games. I just don't get that. It's a software solution built into the other machines so what prevents Sony from putting that option in the firmware of the new Playstation 3's? The statement about latest purchasers of the ps3 not caring as much for ps2 compatibility of course can be viewed as Sony adapting wonderfully to the wishes of the consumers but it contradicts what Sony stated only a mere couple of months ago - about being able to provide a true gaming-platform stretching back from the ps1 era, about supporting customers who built up a nice library of games that they will be able to keep enjoying on the new machine. This all happened in 2006, when Sony's Phil Harrison stated that backwards-compatibility was a key-feature that the company should offer. Being able to play older games is vital to create a 'format'. Ah well a couple of more unsold ps3 units and a lack of games sure can change their perspective on things.....

Sony ToasterSony Toaster

So Sony wants us to believe that all ps2 owners have already made the move to ps3 and that the new breed of ps3 owners that will buy the cheaper machine has no need for ps2 backwards compatibility. But could it be that due to the lack of good games on the ps3, a lot of the ps2 owners held onto their consoles - enjoying that huge catalog of games that is out there for it - and just waited for the ps3 to drop to a reasonable price, especially since they already spent so much cash on their ps2 libraries? What does strike me as totally not logical to this whole non-ps2-backwards compatibility is the fact that the cheapo machine will be able to play ps1 disks! What the heck? Now of course their market analysis may have shown that all those new to be ps3 owners going for the 40Gb device do seem to have a significantly larger amount of ps1 games laying around then the early adopters or the customers that are willing to fork out way more for a card-reader, two more usb ports, a bigger drive and ps2 playback. Loss of ps2 compatibility is a loss for the customer any way you put it. Claiming that backward compatibility - that has already been developed - is not necessary because of all those millions of ps2 units still out there could prove a good point for Sony's claims but as the ps2 consoles optical drives weren't renowned for their longevity, quite a lot of them suffer read-errors making them useless.

I wonder if it will be clearly printed on the box. If it is not it can be pretty misleading to customers as the new Sony consoles always have been backwards compatible with their earlier consoles. Perhaps it is another case of a console makers arrogance trying to ship inferior products to the European territories. Their logic in dropping ps2 support on the cheaper drive is just plain weird in my opinion, especially whilst at the same time retaining ps1 support. Or perhaps Sony is just mad at some game company claiming to support the ps2 for a long time to come and Sony being afraid it will make the ps3 struggle just a little more. Ah well, will not be buying a ps3 anytime soon.....this way..... I bet that if the ps2 compatibility was featured on the 40Gb devices I would actually consider getting one, and perhaps other European customers would too.....

Head shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes.
Head shoulders knees and toes, knees and toes..........


Comments

Mark Vergeer's picture

Say Dijkstra - you probably have Dutch ancestry?

Your signature states Dijkstra, are you from Dutch ancestry?



Editor / Pixelator - Armchair Arcade, Inc.


Nous's picture

I do agree with much of what

I do agree with much of what you said. Of course Nintendo made a great business decision and executed it almost flawlessly. They did what was best for them, and they did it rather well -- there's no arguing that.

But let me emphatically say that this is not "just semantics". This is an unprecedented case and it's useful to make things clear. We can always debate semantics later, but let's first establish the actual reality of the situation.

Yes, of course the Wii is a new *product* in the market! Of course it is presented and marketed as such! This is the business reality. It defines the way it's sold, the way it's presented, its next-gen price point for both hardware and software. This is what you see in the media. This is what is reiterated in all those wonderful commercials. This is what you hear Iwata and Reggie say, and yes, this is what shapes public perception.

But that's where the Wii's reality as a "new platform" ends.

Because in actual fact the Wii is a glorified Gamecube: not *like* a glorified Gamecube .. but literally an *actual* glorified Gamecube, with SD cards, WiFi and a new controller.

This is actual technical reality. No semantics. No subjective interpretation. No contextual perception.

Just cold facts. This is what the platform *actually* is.

A platform's reality defines what kinds of things the platform can do. Potentially. Ideally.

A platform's reality is the totality of all expectations that makes me want to invest in this platform instead of that platform. When I shell out my hard earned next-gen cash to invest in a platform I do not merely invest in a piece of plastic. I invest in all those experiences that the platform uniquely enables; both proven and potential, both realised and expected, both current and future.

In their totality these experiences are both what a new platform defines and what it is defined by. This is precisely what REALLY constitutes a platform.

Everything the Wii enables is in the controller, not in the console itself. The console itself, without the controller, is the exact same platform that you already had. The thing is, you can't get the controller without re-purchasing your old console again -- at a new price point.

Of course it's worked great for Nintendo. Best thing they've ever done, possibly, from a business point of view. There are still questions about longevity and future viability of the Wiicube, but in any case the profit margins are so massive that Nintendo has made more than enough money already irrespective of what happens next.

I do have serious doubts about what Nintendo will want to do next though. They probably don't want to create a new platform that will make them less money per unit if they are to keep it reasonably (i.e. competitively) priced. At the same time, they can't offer a true HD platform without radically changing the technology. Furthermore, developing software for such a platform will also be more expensive, further cutting into their profit margins. Nintendo doesn't like that and I'm curious to see their next move.

One thing is certain: motion sensing is not something that can give Nintendo a competitive advantage much longer; it's very cheap to implement and will probably end up being commonplace anyway. Considering they'll have to try something very different next time I'd have to say that the Wii will probably turn out to be the easiest quick-bucks Nintendo will ever make.

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"Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it."
"You must not give the world what it asks for, but what it needs."

-- Dijkstra


Bill Loguidice's picture

It's just semantics - What really constitutes a new platform?

Again, if Nintendo as a company thought that the key to their success would be motion-sensing technology, however mediocre it is (and as an owner, I'm not exactly 100% happy with its capabilities), they, from a market standpoint, would HAVE to release a new platform. That's the only way to ensure that new games will be developed specifically for it and the not the base Wii-moteless platform. Whether they're tricking people into thinking its new technology or not is irrelevant, as the idea of "platform" is necessary. Nintendo needed a fresh start, a different perception, and the only way to achieve that would be with a new platform. The fact that they chose to leverage the majority of their Gamecube technology is more or less irrelevant, as it did enable several standardizations that would not have been possible on the Gamecube without add-ons that would not have sold in the same manner. As for people being up in arms about being re-sold the same technology, that's neither here nor there, as there's enough about it to make it new enough. I think it would have been fairer sold at $199, instead of $249, but you can't argue with the success of the system (to this point). And yes, of course any of the other systems could easily do the same thing as the Wii-mote with the right add-on or completely new implementation, but they won't. What Microsoft and Sony chose to go with this generation control-wise is what they'll stick with, making the Wii legitimate as a platform simply by the standardization of the Wii-mote alone.

So yes, I can say that Nintendo in a way did dupe the buying public by re-using Gamecube technology and adding to it as was necessary, but so what? The system's success proves that we still live in a low def video and audio world. Luckily for those of us who want more (hell, even 100% widescreen would be nice), I can't see any scenario where Nintendo's next system won't be able to embrace full hi-def and surround sound, finally bringing their platform in line technologically.

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Bill Loguidice, Managing Director
Armchair Arcade, Inc.
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Nous's picture

I'm afraid I can't agree

I'm afraid I can't agree with that view. It just makes no sense to me and I speak as both a developer and a gamer.

These so called "addons" such as built-in flash memory and SD card slots are trivial, insignificant and of no consequence to the actual Wii experience (for which it has now become popular) other than, perhaps, to enable the whole Virtual Console revenue channel. So, if you're saying that it's ok to repurchase a Gamecube at a next-gen price point because you get to download NES and SNES games for $5-$10 each and store them on SD cards (the primary feature enabled by these so called addons) ... and that somehow this alone makes it a justifiably "brand new platform", then .. well I'll just have to disagree.

The minor tweaks on the actual Gamecube hardware, including the slight overclocking of both CPU and GPU as well as the DVD drive are also of no consequence -- they are completely transparent to the end user and make absolutely no difference in terms of what sort of interactive experiences are enabled by the platform.

To put it very very simply: you could be playing Wii Sports and Wii Play, or any other justifiably motion-controlled game, in exactly the same way on your Gamecube by just having a simple tiny wireless dongle and, of course, the new controller. It would be the exact same experience, no difference whatsoever.

It's that simple. There's nothing more to it.

It's also interesting to note that Nintendo have recently made comments along the lines that "the Wii is not just about motion sensing", which is evidently true considering that the wiimote itself has a quite limited set of legitimate applications and uses before it becomes a gimmick or even a clumsy substitute for existing control methods, as well as the fact that many of the great games on the Wii don't even necessarilly require the use of motion controls in the first place. On the other hand, those games that do utilise the motion controls well are still fun and accessible.

I think a common misconception is that we "gamers" (or "non-nongamers") are just bitching about the Wii not being a large enough leap into next-gen territory.

This isn't true: this is NOT about the Wii being "only" 10 times more powerful than our old Gamecubes (which is what many people assumed and still believe in their fuzzy logic minds), instead of it being 100 times more powerful like the PS3 is compared to the PS2.

The Wii is nowhere near 10 times more powerful. It's not 5 times more powerful either. It's not 3 times more powerful. It's not even twice as powerful.

No, this is about the Wii being the exact same Gamecube that we already have ... only with a new controller, basically! Take away the wiimote and all you're left with is a glorified Gamecube -- literally. Vice versa, add the wiimote and its software to any other platform (including the Gamecube) and you ought to get *at least* the exact same experience and appeal.

One may also argue that a PS3 is no good if its games are just glorified versions of PS2 games -- and this would be absolutely true. However the PS3 as a hardware platform is completely different and vastly superior to the PS2 and, as a platform, it can enable completely different or at least vastly superior kinds of interactive experiences assuming developers make use of those capabilities.

Sadly, the same can't be said about the Wii as a plaftorm, but it could be said partly about the wiimote as a controller. The problem is that we have effectively accepted to re-purchase the same Gamecube that we already have, at a nextgen price point, just to get that new controller! (which by the way is quite cheap to make and built from off-the-shelf components). A controller does not a new platform make, nor does it ever justify buying the same hardware again at a premium price.

At the very least, this should be something to bitch about a lot more than merely losing PS2 compatibility in order to get such a significant (and possibly crucial) price cut.

---------------

"Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it."
"You must not give the world what it asks for, but what it needs."

-- Dijkstra


yakumo9275's picture

I solved my BC probs by

I solved my BC probs by getting a ps2-slim for next to nothing, the sucky thing, the 3 game discs I have are UK pal discs that wont play on us ntsc. grrrr region locking!!! Time to raid the $5 used bin :)

-- Stu --


Bill Loguidice's picture

Wii

Again, it CAN be argued that the Wii is a new console, as all those add-ons - built-in wireless networking, standard memory card slots, built-in storage memory, ability to accept full-size DVDs, more system memory, etc., constitute a radical enough change that you can't reasonably expect the old system to accomodate them without a clunky add-on. It IS essentially a slightly improved GameCube, so it's less of next gen jump than any of the other systems technologically (core), but it is still inherently different. There would be no easy or elegant way to make an add-on for the GameCube that did the same things, and you'd still have the problem I described earlier with the haves and have nots. And Nintendo releasing the one-off, Wii-fit, is not the same thing, just like Sony releasing the Eye Toy is not the same thing. They're not standard on the platform, so no more than a handful of games will ever be designed to take specific advantage of them. That's the problem with them. The only way to introduce a new paradigm is to create an entirely new platform where the standard rules can be re-written, rules that every developer can count on 100% of the time. We can always take issue though with how far these companies should go with new systems (whether it's too far or not enough), but it's hard to deny the actual NEED for a new system if there are enough fundamental changes or differences that the very existence of a new platform creates.

===================================
Bill Loguidice, Managing Director
Armchair Arcade, Inc.
===================================


Nous's picture

No killer app for the PS3

No killer app for the PS3 yet ... pretty much true. Gran Turismo HD (downloadable) should be out pretty soon now, though, and the current free demo is just that... a free demo put together very quickly ... it's not a new game, it just has HD and looks better (it's not really that bad, but it's just not an actual game of course).

I think production costs for the new PS3 should be around $40-$50 less now due to the redesign (which included removing a PS2 part -- but not only because of that). That's not a whole lot of money but it's still significant, even perhaps crucial, at this point in time.

In any case, an upscaling PS2-compatible PS3 would definitely be preferable, there's no question about it! I do wonder, though, why so few people chose to get a PS3 for $400 a few months ago (with $100 rebate after returning your old PS2). It's hard to tell how many people actually think PS2 compatibility is more important than having a much cheaper PS3 available *NOW* but I believe they are a minority. I still think price is more crucial right now, and I'm pretty sure PS2 compatibility will simply resurface at some point anyway - one way or another.

---------------

"Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it."
"You must not give the world what it asks for, but what it needs."

-- Dijkstra


Mark Vergeer's picture

Newsflash: PS2 BC removed to improve PS3 games sales!

Hold your horses!
In a Wall Street Journal news article (link requires subscription to WSJ!) a remarkable statement bij Jack Tretton got my attention. Jack Tratton is one of the topdogs in Sony Computer Entertainment by the way. He says that production costs actually are not decreasing drastically by removing backwards-compatibility for PS2 games in the new 40Gb unit, but it will lower the threshold to buy PS3 games. Compared to the enormous PS2 library the PS3 library is still rather pale in comparison. What is also said is that PS2 BC won't be missed because most PS3-owners also have a PS2. Yes we've heard that before. Besides, the PS2 doesn't produce a great picture on most new LCD screens so an upscaling PS3 for PS2 games might be a better solution for people with HD/HDReady screens. So the PS2 for PS2 games might not be as good a solution to keep playing PS2 games as Jack wants us to believe.
So this whole BC removal is only to decrease PS2 games and to increase revenues from PS3 game sales in the long run. It is not lowering production costs of the PS3 with any significance. So no direct financial gain for Sony. It is funny that Sony is still suffering from its previously hugely successful console and wants to artificially enhance PS3 game sales. This feels to me like a screw-over the customers thing, don't like it one bit.

Theoretically it still might be possible to retrofit BC - but I don't see that happening anytime soon. The step-up from PSX to PS2 was huge but the step-up from PS2 to PS3 is lukewarm at best. The releases out for the console are still lacking 'the killer app'. That Gran Turismo HD demo is just horrible and plain wrong, doesn't feel like a real Gran Turismo at all.
So if you want BC on a PS3 you need to get one of those 60Gb versions and supplies are dwindling.

Kotaku - Sonys problems start at the top!
Kotaku - SONY BC removal not to reduce costs!



Editor / Pixelator - Armchair Arcade, Inc.


Nous's picture

Wii isn't really a new platform, is it ?

Bill Loguidice wrote:
And just to play devil's advocate, there IS justification for all three of the new videogame consoles. Retrofits or add-ons never work in the marketplace and you'd have a situation with the haves and have-nots. If you're going to introduce anything major new, whether it's built-in wireless, optional hard drive, more memory, whatever, you're better off just establishing a new platform around newer technology. While the Wii is mostly last gen technology, there are still enough new elements outside of that to require an entirely new system.

I would have to disagree. The Wii isn't a real platform; it's a Gamecube with built in WiFi and a new controller (as well as a new next-gen price point for both hardware and software!)

Would it be ok if they made us buy the same console AGAIN now that the WiFit controller is about to be released?

Would it be ok if Sony made us buy a "new" PSii, with WiFi (and a few slight tweaks here and there, of no significance whatsoever) just to get the eye toy or Buzz! or Guitar Hero controller ?

This is simply unheard of and, at least as far as the non-nongamers (a new term since we're now "officially" a minority, you see) who purchased a Wii are concerned, it borders on being a scam in so far as nobody knew what they were actually buying (i.e. investing good, hard earned $$$ in) and in fact still most don't.

Just to demonstrate this last point and show how big a part PR, marketing, novelty and ignorance played here: if Miyamoto went up to each one of the people who bought the Wii and explained clearly and honestly that this is a Gamecube with a controller that could have just as easily worked on any platform with drivers for it (including the original Gamecube of course), then I bet most of the nongamers would still buy it but at the same time most of the experienced gamers would rather pass on the Wii and either get a 360 or PS3 or simply wait until prices come down or a new Nintendo platform is actually released in the near future!

---------------

"Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it."
"You must not give the world what it asks for, but what it needs."

-- Dijkstra


Nous's picture

Mark, very well said. I

Mark, very well said. I agree, it "sucks" (as in, it's an unfortunate set of circumstances that lead to this decision -- as opposed to it being an unashamed attempt to outright scam their loyal customers) but I too hope a 100% software solution will emerge at some point anyway.

I would assume the 40gb model also uses the same standard 2.5in SATA-II drives so it should be relatively easy and cheap to upgrade to a much larger hard drive later on -- but do double check just to make sure.

By the way, that'd be $399 for the 40gb model .. not $499 ... right ? It's $499 for the 80gb "backwards compatible" model if I'm not mistaken, though I don't know if they bundle any games in with that.

---------------

"Elegance has the disadvantage that hard work is needed to achieve it and a good education to appreciate it."
"You must not give the world what it asks for, but what it needs."

-- Dijkstra


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